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·makes sense to me
Snell's response to Motorcyclist helmet article
1 - 20 of 21 Posts
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·Wow. By the tone in his letter, I would say he is a little peaved. It was a long read but a good one.
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·I would say he had a good reason to be peaved.colryn said:
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21 Posts
I don't see the logic in that statement. Subjecting your head to 300 G's seems like it would do a lot more damage than 150 G's. Lower G's on my head seems like the best choice. The problem is making the helmet able to do that without making an 8 foot helmet.
I think this guy read into stuff a little too much. Motorcyclist didn't say that snell helmets aren't unsafe. But I do wonder who is right about the level of G's for each standard.
In any case I'm still very happy with my non Snell Suomy Spec 1R
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·I believe he's saying that by his definition of safe; you can't have "more safe". Once you establish what level of G's are considered safe; a level below that isn't more safe, it's just safe.
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·lower G's will ALWAYS be better on your head, period. Of course Snell will have a response like this, what would you expect. Motorcyclist mag kind of attacked them and they feel backed in a corner. Overall the USA needs to adopt a better safety system which includes helmets, jackets, back protectors, etc. I seriously doubt that will happen but it would be nice.
I'll stick with my Suomy as well...
I'll stick with my Suomy as well...
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·Motorcyclists response to SNELL
http://motorcyclistonline.com/gearbox/hatz/
http://motorcyclistonline.com/gearbox/hatz/
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·This is a long read, but it actually requires that length for a well researched and well written scientific discussion about helmet standards. I am personally very grateful that RR posted that link, as many of my questions have been addressed in this article.RRWANTR said:
The response and counter response was eye opening as well.
I write this only to prod some people to read it for themselves and formulate their own conclusions. I know that I have!
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·Care to share what you came away with?maxib said:
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·Well, since you asked! A short preface though...
Longtime .orgers know what I do for a living. For the folks who don't know me or had forgotten, I'll just say I work in the medical field, and my specialty in the head and neck area has given me (both by training and experience) an insight into trauma in this area directly related to injuries that not only involve motorcyclists, but to unseatbelted cage drivers, passengers and back seat passengers, with regards to automobile or motorway accidents.
Although I have not done a double blind study, I have been in the trenches treating accident victims. Also, having completed training in the specialty of pathology (although I do not practice path, I've BTDT regarding accident autopsies) I can vouch for the statements regarding the consistency of brain matter stated in this article. In fact, I was amazed during the first weeks of my neurosurgery rotation how much brain surgery was actually done using only a suction device due to how delicate the brain tissue is.
The bottom line for me is whatever helmet shell and lining can keep the brain from from rapid deceleration and smashing around inside the cranium will probably do a great job for protection. I feel that Dr. Hurt's research and data are valid today. I also feel that consideration of only head trauma skews conclusions with regards to motorcycle crashes, as the entire body is involved, not just the head. As stated in the article, people can experience a survivable head injury only to die due to other body injuries.
In this context, I feel that anyone that has a passion for this sport understands (or should) that you 'pays the price of the ticket understanding that the ride might hurt'. In other words, there is no guarantee. If you want complete safety in a sport, take up fingerpainting with nontoxic materials, and even then it might be unsafe if you have an allergy to any of the stuff. No risky business in life you want? Stay indoors forever...ummm that won't work, your house may have asbestos insulation...
How's that for a prologue/prelude?
You asked the question, so here's my answer...
I'll be much less concerned about 'certification' from a particular certification agency with my future helmet purchases. I do think full face coverage is mandatory, but I will not eliminate the flip up full face helmet, or an European helmet just because it does not have a certain sticker. There is nothing that proves European standards are less than US, and possibly today they may very well be superior.
I cannot ignore the laws of physics, nor should anyone else, because physics works. (Space travel wouldn't be possible without following the laws of physics, right?) No matter how fast you were going when you high-sided, your head still only fell 10 feet or less at the pull of gravity before hitting the floor. That's the impact needed to be safe from. The fact that you slid 5 meters or 50 meters from the speed really doesn't matter. The physical material of the helmet should keep your face from being scraped off then. The rolling and tumbling after the ground hit safety, is more concerned with what body protection the rider has on while sliding across the tarmac, not the helmet.
An argument could be made for the situation where the fall is survivable, but the slide into a curb is bad...i.e. needing to survive two impacts, could be made...but until someone could prove statistically from actual data collected that less than 1% of secondary hits would not result in a broken neck in that scenario...I'll take my chances.
IOW, I'll buy my next helmet if it has some sort of testing certification, looks good to me, and most importantly...fits comfortably. (If it don't fit, nobody wears it) To put it differently, I no longer think that a Snell rating is the ultimate in safety. There are other choices.
Time and knowledge moves on. My next helmet may very well be a Snell rated helmet, because it could be an Arai or Shoei. (Both of which I currently have and use. Both of which are repeat helmet buys for me.)
However, it's nice to know that I can get as good protection (physically in the real world of trauma when all physical injuries are taken into account) with another brand helmet for my brain. The rest of me may not survive, but that's another issue.
The real bottom line for me is that a full face helmet with any of the recognized standards of certification is as good as it gets. So I won't be looking for a particular certification. My next helmet has to have one of them however.
Everyone of us has to make our own personal decision as to what is or isn't for the best for us. That's called life. If someone else disagrees, well so be it!
Quick answer to your question...many brands have been opened to my next helmet purchase decision.
Now, aren't you glad you asked??
Longtime .orgers know what I do for a living. For the folks who don't know me or had forgotten, I'll just say I work in the medical field, and my specialty in the head and neck area has given me (both by training and experience) an insight into trauma in this area directly related to injuries that not only involve motorcyclists, but to unseatbelted cage drivers, passengers and back seat passengers, with regards to automobile or motorway accidents.
Although I have not done a double blind study, I have been in the trenches treating accident victims. Also, having completed training in the specialty of pathology (although I do not practice path, I've BTDT regarding accident autopsies) I can vouch for the statements regarding the consistency of brain matter stated in this article. In fact, I was amazed during the first weeks of my neurosurgery rotation how much brain surgery was actually done using only a suction device due to how delicate the brain tissue is.
The bottom line for me is whatever helmet shell and lining can keep the brain from from rapid deceleration and smashing around inside the cranium will probably do a great job for protection. I feel that Dr. Hurt's research and data are valid today. I also feel that consideration of only head trauma skews conclusions with regards to motorcycle crashes, as the entire body is involved, not just the head. As stated in the article, people can experience a survivable head injury only to die due to other body injuries.
In this context, I feel that anyone that has a passion for this sport understands (or should) that you 'pays the price of the ticket understanding that the ride might hurt'. In other words, there is no guarantee. If you want complete safety in a sport, take up fingerpainting with nontoxic materials, and even then it might be unsafe if you have an allergy to any of the stuff. No risky business in life you want? Stay indoors forever...ummm that won't work, your house may have asbestos insulation...
How's that for a prologue/prelude?
You asked the question, so here's my answer...
I'll be much less concerned about 'certification' from a particular certification agency with my future helmet purchases. I do think full face coverage is mandatory, but I will not eliminate the flip up full face helmet, or an European helmet just because it does not have a certain sticker. There is nothing that proves European standards are less than US, and possibly today they may very well be superior.
I cannot ignore the laws of physics, nor should anyone else, because physics works. (Space travel wouldn't be possible without following the laws of physics, right?) No matter how fast you were going when you high-sided, your head still only fell 10 feet or less at the pull of gravity before hitting the floor. That's the impact needed to be safe from. The fact that you slid 5 meters or 50 meters from the speed really doesn't matter. The physical material of the helmet should keep your face from being scraped off then. The rolling and tumbling after the ground hit safety, is more concerned with what body protection the rider has on while sliding across the tarmac, not the helmet.
An argument could be made for the situation where the fall is survivable, but the slide into a curb is bad...i.e. needing to survive two impacts, could be made...but until someone could prove statistically from actual data collected that less than 1% of secondary hits would not result in a broken neck in that scenario...I'll take my chances.
IOW, I'll buy my next helmet if it has some sort of testing certification, looks good to me, and most importantly...fits comfortably. (If it don't fit, nobody wears it) To put it differently, I no longer think that a Snell rating is the ultimate in safety. There are other choices.
Time and knowledge moves on. My next helmet may very well be a Snell rated helmet, because it could be an Arai or Shoei. (Both of which I currently have and use. Both of which are repeat helmet buys for me.)
However, it's nice to know that I can get as good protection (physically in the real world of trauma when all physical injuries are taken into account) with another brand helmet for my brain. The rest of me may not survive, but that's another issue.
The real bottom line for me is that a full face helmet with any of the recognized standards of certification is as good as it gets. So I won't be looking for a particular certification. My next helmet has to have one of them however.
Everyone of us has to make our own personal decision as to what is or isn't for the best for us. That's called life. If someone else disagrees, well so be it!
Quick answer to your question...many brands have been opened to my next helmet purchase decision.
Now, aren't you glad you asked??
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·Your reply was as long as the article...
Thanks for your input.
Thanks for your input.G
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·Well said maxib. :thumb: Do the research, draw your conclusions, make your purchase.
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·I've done the research and here is my next helmet purchase.
http://zapatopi.net/afdb/
Of course it will be in conjunction with a catcher's mask. :thumb:
http://zapatopi.net/afdb/
Of course it will be in conjunction with a catcher's mask. :thumb:
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·:rotfl: I'm with you.jaim said:
I get the sense from these articles that this debate is more about personal egos between Snell and other scientists than motorcycle helmet safety.
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·So is 1G safer than 2Gs? 2G's is 100% more...tikki50 said:
If 45 miles per hour is a safe speed for a particular road, does that mean that 40 miles per hour is safer?
There's a reason they call it a threshold test.
I think we should all be thankful that there are people like Snell and Motorcyclist that are having this debate and doing this work to promote the safety of our sport. It's a healthy and probably productive debate that, although it won't be resolved definitively, will probably lead to improvements for us. I think both sides have the right intentions, and we're lucky to have such intelligent and dedicated people working on these issues on our behalf.
--- D
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·From Snell response:
"But the Motorcyclist article went further. Not content with impugning Snell standards, the article slyly suggested fraud. They quoted one of their sources saying, "The Snell sticker has become a marketing gimmick." and implying that riders were being hustled for as much as $100 a hat. Nonsense, we live in the most market savvy country in history. I've grown up seeing and seeing through more slick ad campaigns and smears than my great grandparents would ever have dreamed possible. The half-life for a marketing gimmick these days is surely no more than a few months while Snell is coming up for its fiftieth anniversary."
I don't know, Harley just hit 100, and they have the "marketing gimmick" down pat.
"I hope all of you will look past anything you might find frivolous or inappropriate here and understand that Snell standards and Snell certified helmets represent the best solution to head impact protection that we here at the Snell Memorial Foundation can propose."
Wow. The Snell Memorial Foundation is backing there certification. Fluff.:thumbd:
"But the Motorcyclist article went further. Not content with impugning Snell standards, the article slyly suggested fraud. They quoted one of their sources saying, "The Snell sticker has become a marketing gimmick." and implying that riders were being hustled for as much as $100 a hat. Nonsense, we live in the most market savvy country in history. I've grown up seeing and seeing through more slick ad campaigns and smears than my great grandparents would ever have dreamed possible. The half-life for a marketing gimmick these days is surely no more than a few months while Snell is coming up for its fiftieth anniversary."
I don't know, Harley just hit 100, and they have the "marketing gimmick" down pat.
"I hope all of you will look past anything you might find frivolous or inappropriate here and understand that Snell standards and Snell certified helmets represent the best solution to head impact protection that we here at the Snell Memorial Foundation can propose."
Wow. The Snell Memorial Foundation is backing there certification. Fluff.:thumbd:1 - 20 of 21 Posts
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